Todos tenemos prejuicios preconfigurados en nuestra mente, que nos guían en la manera cómo nos conducimos con nuestro entorno, y que afectan a la diversidad e inclusión: dos importantes temas que en la industria del software han avanzado muy poco en los últimos años.
Está a punto de ser estrenado el documental “Hello World: The Film”, que trata estos temas dentro de la industria del software.
En este episodio tuvimos la presencia de Shawn Wildermuth, tecnólogo con más de tres décadas de experiencia, Microsoft MVP, autor de diversos cursos en Pluralsight y actualmente, también, director de cine.
Durante esta interesante charla, Shawn nos platica su última creación: la película documental Hello World (Hola Mundo). Nos describe cuál fue el origen de esta idea, el proceso creativo, cuánto tiempo le llevó filmarla y algunos datos adicionales con respecto a esta película, que tiene como objetivo exponer estas dificultades a las que se enfrentan actualmente una gran cantidad de personas.
Notas y vínculos adjuntos
Sitio de Hello World: The Film
Twitter de Shawn
Shawn nos recomienda el libro “Cosmos” de Carl Sagan.
Trailer final de Hello World: The Film:
00:00:01 - 00:05:03
Hey Shawn thank you for your time. I'm very honored to have you here. I am so happy that you had time to have me. You know we go way back to our Silverlight days. So yeah i know right. We used to travel the world with the Silverlight tour. We were we. Were and and i still haven't taken you up on coming down to mexico city so maybe maybe soon if we're ever able to leave the united states again. That's right well. I'm sure that you are very busy. Nowadays is a movie director. Yeah i wanted i. I am very busy especially with the film. But i also have the courses. I'm teaching them digging into code most days so it's it's luckily i don't have kids otherwise i don't know why how getting You're right you're right so let's start by talking about your newest brought the hello world film. What was the region of this idea. So originally i had decided that i wanted to learn something new and making a movie. I thought it'd be difficult enough to lay waste the boredom that i was having and i was just gonna do this. Love letter to software development. Because i feel really lucky to be a software developer i lover industry and then i realized as when i started to do research that All the people had lined up to talk to where white guys from north america or from a western europe. And i was like. Oh this might. This might be a problem in this. might be with. The movie really should be about in. So when i started looking at the demographics software developers i think the last few years. We've talked a lot about the lack of women in software. And that's been very obvious but at least in the united states we haven't been talking about the lack of black and latinx ickes representation. They make up three and a half and four and a half percent of developers men and women combined and it's I really i was curious about why right until the film talks about both women and blatantly. Latin x developers that you know where are they were they. Why aren't they getting into the business. They staying in the business So we talked to developers. We also talked to educators about some of the things they're doing trying to improve And we talked to people co dot org that are trying to Help at the high school level of gaining interest especially in minority communities where affluent is a bigger problem with interest than it is You know societally. You know difference. It's just like well. They're going to schools. That have less money sent to them so the less chance. They are exposed to computer science in high school. Therefore they're less They'll be less interested when they go to college and less of them will go to college. Because you know the Poverty makes it hard to do any of that even finish high school. So it you know. It's a complicated story that i don't have a solution for The i made the movie. Because i realized i had a part in this that i had assumed that women at conferences were recruiters instead of developers that i didn't notice that i hadn't worked with that many black or lat next developers just didn't even occur to me that was a story like And it really bothered me. That i didn't notice that it was just comfortable with tons and tons of people that look like me being in software development you know even even the stereotypes of what we think about a software developers in film and tv ends up being the same sort of stereotypes. and if there is a a black hacker in some movie.
00:05:03 - 00:10:24
It's always like he doesn't fit in with the black community. It's never someone that's comfortable with. Who who they are being a developer or any of that sort of idea and One of the examples. I like to give is that I seem you've seen drastic park and probably some of your audience. And when we think of this software developer in jurassic park we think of what the the the big white guy that that is sort of central to the film's plot but in the same scenes where he's in front of his console that keep turning over to samuel jackson who is the head of it in the moving and when you ask people about you know the computer guy in the movie. No one even thinks about semifinal. Jackson is a black man as really that guy's boss like we. We don't think about that at all. Because we're so fixated on you know the Comic book guy from the simpsons like that. That's sorta what i look like. I fit into that. You know into that stereotype. I think we can't have women and other people model who they wanna be if we don't have any representation also in in the way people see them. Yeah do senior tweet about these fashion model. Who programs in python in sepals blows and and languages right. Yeah in sambi. I mean an honest to god developer and the first thing people assume as that the first thing that people in our industry assume is that she's not very good because she's a woman and especially because she's a good looking woman right there's this sort of biases you could never be a model and ann arbor and i'm like you know whereas on other hand you know you're probably the best looking man i've ever seen in person and you're really good developers so i'll take the tell me that you know. Yeah i mean yeah you're right. We have a lot of biases in this industry. And it's so cool that we have this Well actually i think this is the first movie abell. The software development process my right now there was another one called debug debugging the gender gap that just talked about the lack of women. Okay more journalistic one of the things that i've tried to do in the movie and My editor really helped me decide this and that was to make my story as sort of the skeleton of someone that's in the industry that has has had my own problems with lack of diversity like i'm not the white guy that's gonna save everything like i don't have that solution but the hope is that i. I don't think our industry is as bad as feared. But it's not as good as i hope right. It's somewhere in the middle because a lot of it. I don't think is explicit bias. I don't think there's surely racism and sexism in every industry including arms like we should get away from that. But there's i think the bigger problem really. Is this implicit bias. That when someone comes in interviews for software job. There's a a expectation that they have to fit in with the team and fitting in means that they look often like the team or they're from the same background or they have the same education level or whenever it is not that We can we could be writing better software if we had people that didn't act look or came come from the same backgrounds as everybody else. This this Culture of just one type of people is helping us create bad software in general bad software. Solutions you know. There's some good examples out there of facial recognition not working well with people of color because clearly right they weren't a big part of the team developed it and even non-south for things like Airbags started killing women when they came out because they had never tested them. With with short crash test dummies. They're all male sized right and so You know there was a big like. How do we fix this. Well how did you not know it like. How did you not know about this. Or even the In the airport those automatic faucets One of the people were talking about says that you know when he puts his hands down and under the faucet it doesn't work because he's a man of colored an he has to turn his hands over for it to work like what who didn't test this with anything but bay skin right. I mean it's just one of the things i like to talk about is that i think that there is a benefit to diversity in software that doesn't have to do with the Social justice right like it would be the correct thing in the fair thing to do to get rid of the lack of diversity but if you take that out of the picture and go you know what we could be making better software if we have more interesting voices in the room.
00:10:24 - 00:15:01
Yeah you know. So what's the creative process for creating a movie like this. I mean did ride the script beforehand or with a movie like this. It's changed a lot. And i actually have described. Moviemaking is kind of similar software in that You kind of a roadmap when you're starting but you're willing to change it at every at every level okay so. The script was actually written pretty late in the process because a lot of what i would normally call research. I did typical run through the web. Read articles talk to people And then i went out and interviewed a lot of people that everyone that made it into the film but every interview helped me figure out what. The story was When a narrative movie like the avengers or something is made they usually shoot about four minutes for every one minute of film that that ends up on the screen because they have this very rigid plan of what they're gonna do and in documentary. It's often one hundred one. Wow so you find the story in the when you're editing you're like oh this is a good moment. This is a good moment. I spent an hour with them and they may spend thirty seconds. Sunscreen. that's not. That's not uncommon at all. 'cause you really you know i had never did calculate how many hours of footage i had But the raw film is somewhere in the neighborhood. Who seven terabytes of data. Oh yeah we've taken that and turned into Seventy two minutes of fill right like guide. Right right yeah. it's it's it's an. It's very interesting process in that way but just like software. When you make a film you also have to be Willing to change the the whole idea of like almost having sprints in software like what are we learned in. How are we going to move forward. The happens in film constantly but probably the biggest thing that that i thought was really interesting about the process was i had to go into it knowing that i didn't know what i was doing right like i'm not sure what the right next thing to do is and so. I surrounded myself with with a good team of a team of people that knew their little part of the whole picture. And and i think that gets lost sometimes in software development where we want everyone to be. You know a super developer right. Everyone wants to be at eight type personality. And the the guy that's going to work nights and I'm still catching myself. Saying the guy so. I apologize young. That's that's part of the problem in that we need team. The best teams are made of different people. We see this in sports all the time. Like if In baseball if you have twenty good Pitchers in knowing that can hit. That's not a good team right. You just can't you can't See the same thing you know you can have a whole team versus Goalies in in in in football. So i think it's a it's a good lesson to learn that. Not only do i not have to know how to do everything but i don't have to be good at everything and in that process. It's taken me five years to make the movie. Wow i thought it would take about a year and a half but it takes me five to went on a trip bride on the hello world boss tour or something like that right You were it was going to be a bus tour. But that was really for the podcast. A podcast you're right. Yeah but that started. Sort of fomenting of the idea of I i think. I think there's a story here. That i wanna tell in a larger sort of documentary since i wanna give people an insight that aren't in the industry. When one of the goals with the movie has always been this offer. Developer should be able to sit next to their mother and watch the film and both of them get something out of it. Okay okay and getting people on camera to not use acronyms every third word. That's the That's complicated against right. We're just so used to throwing around race bajic terms that we all know as the secret handshake into software development. Ride home at the end of the day.
00:15:01 - 00:20:07
What i want out of this film isn't to point the finger at tech. I want to anyone that watches it especially people that aren't in tech to being courage d- that we not only would welcome them but that we need them. You know in the united states before covid. It's worse now. But in the united states before covid there were about three and a half a million people out of work and they're about million on filled jobs in tech. You should be able to do the man's right. I mean if we especially in underserved communities we could go in there and go you know a boot camp might get you into an entry level position and we need a lot of people that level like not. Everyone needs to be a have a doctorate in computer science. In this case like their most of the people that do development do developments inside of a company and we often never here. They don't read a book. They don't speak at conferences but they make the whole world work. That's right now. Yeah one of the examples. I wanted to use in in the movie but ended up being cut. Was this idea of like if you stand in the middle of a street. Can you tell me where all the software is. You know It's in the someone wrote the code. That's in the stoplight. Someone wrote the code. That makes the open sign blink in a certain way so when made each register work every phone there's software everywhere in somebody that you've never heard of enables your whole life to work. Yeah that's right. The world runs on software right. Yeah so what were some of the challenges that you faced while recording these This movie well. Some of the challenges were the miami my inability to press record. We had simply a matter of Early on i was just doing all the recording. And i would you know. I have a great audio with no video on the couple. He says yeah. I put a microphone interviewing chris sales for the movie. I put a microphone next to on his collar right next to his beard. And so i got home and all i heard was yes that happened. I mean technically. There's a lot to just get sort of comfortable with you know The reality is that you could y- anyone can make a movie about something they're passionate about as we know from youtube you know with the with the camera on your phone like In a lot of ways. It's not as daunting as it used to be. Sort of in the were sort of. Been a a heyday developed of documentaries. Because of that we also you know part of it is trying to figure out how to tell. A story has to be something. That's that interesting to people in. Probably the biggest thing that i learned early on was that sound is more important than video which was very was very new concept to me but the reality is if i'm watching something in the videos kind of scratchy and it's it's moving a lot but i can hear what the story is happening. I'll sit through it. But if if i am having trouble with the sound and the video looks beautiful. I just won't do it. Yeah like and. I think most of us were so it's so interesting. How much more importantly the audio and the stories in the quality of voice in all of that is then than that. You've got the perfect shot And you know podcasts. Since we're it's all sound you know. We're sort of in tune with that. But then you know sort of figuring out the next. The next level is Is always is always a you. Know a task. Yeah in and so what. What recording gear used. I use a couple of panasonic g h force which is a. It's a camera but it they're made for the most part for video so they're really compact have because they're just esa lars and i use like zoom recorder. Just like i did for the whole podcast. It's actually the same. They for each six eight four k. l. e. l. the eight six. Yeah it's a great one. Yeah yeah and i record them. Separately and then Premier which is how i edit everything up together Because a or just as such a better job we use a couple of road. wireless mics when we do interviews and then have a another road mike on the camera for us to do. Were actually like a shooting out in the open someplace And i shot almost the entire film on on two lenses.
00:20:08 - 00:25:05
So it's you know you don't need. I didn't need fourteen lenses. Because mostly i was trying to collect these very personal stories from people right and The best way to do that you know even though it in some ways it can be boring if you just have a talking head video let people like well. We need more this. We need b roll needles but the reality is if the story is compelling. It doesn't matter. Like to be able to see. Richard campbell's is when he talked about you know when he was early in computers. Because that to me is where the sewri is perennial saying or iding matt with a picture of an old commodore sixty four or something. isn't as interesting and Especially when i talked to some women who are sort of encouraged not to stay in the industry because they were bullied at work or Asthma or those sorts of things in college I wanna see the you know the look in the ride is that's that's where it really emotionally. That yeah okay And so you know. Probably the biggest technical hurdle of all of it was a store. Seven terabytes like that. Yeah what did you. I delta nasa attacks attached storage unit store to store it. All and one of the things that most of the video editors do and premier. Which is what i used does is allows you to create something called proxies basically you re render all your video Really bad looking video. So it's small and you can do all these edits with this very small reconnect rise and have rent. That's very clever. Yeah yeah because. I mean you can spend a lot of memory in a lot of money. Of course you have to edit the entire movie right. it's interesting because The erin complains about chrome and and Visual studio being memory hogs or whatever. There's nothing like a video editor mirror to go. You think you have a powerful machine. Let let's find out And there is the best thing about making movies is that I could tell my wife that. I needed that new video card. Yeah exactly had it and they happen to be playing games. As you're right you're right. Yeah yeah so. What are some of the key takeaways that you want people to to you know to to get from these particular movie. I'm hoping that people are going to take away to things. and i. i really think there's a story. For developers and non developers for developers. I would like developers to just look at their own behavior and see if there's any bias there and i'll and i would argue that. Everyone has bias. I of bias sometimes when I see someone that little voice in the back of my reptilian part of my brain tells me what i think they should be. Oh they don't look like a developer for they don't belong here or how do they get into the hotel like all these stupid things that sometimes popular brain in. It's my job to not act on them right this for my my mind to go. I oh yes. That's an interesting thing. My brain just did. I'm gonna ignore it because that's not true right Whether it's how you grew up or just your experience with people or whatever it is to acknowledge the bias and not let it Taint your behavior in for people not in software development that think they might be interested. I wanted to talk. I wanted. I want them to see that. It's more approachable than they're afraid that it's not tied into having no higher level math that there are tons of companies that are looking for people that are from diverse backgrounds. That that it isn't as as blocked off as you might imagine. And that for especially for some families in the lower income households around the world that this can be a generational changing career like the one person that picks of software development can help bring whole families out of poverty right and that to me is is so exciting You know i. It's really the promise of of the computer revolution to me.
00:25:05 - 00:30:01
It isn't talk it isn't you know being with edit html on your f- near my space page. It's really being able to help people wherever they're at. Because all you need is an internet connection and a text editor and you can really do some amazing things with with your life especially if you feel stuck yeah cow. I agree agree. So do you think. Is there a solution for various and racism or are we doomed as human i. I think there's no way to get rid of bias state. I think it's just no way to get rid of bias. I grew up in in miami in in the nineteen eighties and That was during the mariel boatlift were Carter opened up and said Anyone who can make here from cuba mickey here and at castro opened up the prisons and put them on boats Which the really bad game of chess theron's played. But because of that i grew up with some really racist ideas about people that spoke spanish spanish still and i apologize to all the viewers about i slept with this thing in my brain of like. Are they talking about me. 'cause i don't speak spanish and maybe i should but In fighting that bias is is way bigger than any other bias. I have and is one that. I actively fight at because i've met so many good people from everywhere around the world that i just adore in the fact that my brain still does it because at seven years old. I was fed this message from my school for my parents that there was something wrong with these people that were coming from right and i don't know how to get rid of it. I just know how to not act on it today. I right so can. We expect a hello world part to movie. Maybe we you know. Jon hamm as rodrigo diaz probably not. I'm i'm working on a second film but it's not about a for okay cool but you're finding next movie. Yeah okay yeah. We're going to start filming as soon as kover. Yeah so because this film was actually finished last December yeah that yeah one of the things that I didn't realize even though everyone warned me about it was it took a year to get out like defined a distributor to you know especially as a first time filmmaker especially the first time filmmaker. That didn't go to film school. And that his is in his fifties like it took me a while to figure it took of navigate that path. I'm actually working on a youtube series. That should come out a probably mid december. It's going to start. Where i tell the story of how i made the film or it's all just to sort of get it out of my head And give me something to do during covid. But because i think i i learned so much along the way i just want to sort of shared out there and go if you have a story to tell a lot of people do that there. There's the bar isn't as east to be you don't need to you know. Find a million dollars and and You know higher script writers and he got your phone. Stay off tiktok so yeah. I think this is gonna be awesome. I'm looking forward to it man. So can we expect the movie here. In latin america or spain. I hope so. I really do. We're working with an international distribution company right now to pick everywhere it's going to go and part of that process translating it So i expect that Early next year we'll be able to announce that we're coming to europe. Israel australia latin america so those are the those are the audiences. Were going forward Because we can cover a lot of the world that way and Even though it's such a populous country the one. That's still in. The air is portuguese for brazil So if any of your readers are passionate about me getting the film with with portuguese subtitles. Please let us know at hello world. Film dot com so that we go ahead and do that. Okay okay cool. We're just trying to limit the number of languages languages. We have right to do. Just because it's cost prohibitive to find someone to translate it and then make it into those magic words. Show up on the bottom of the okay. Great now we know there. Hello world film is coming soon. And it'll be available on netflix or amazon.
00:30:01 - 00:33:10
Or it'll be out As a pay per view on i tunes in fact it's available right now as a preorder in north america. I tunes but we expected to come out. Probably on amazon pay per view and then eventually onto the subscription based providers like amazon prime xbox google play those sorts of things Probably a quarter after they're released as pay per view and if they want to Get notified when it releases in their area. They can go to the website to the website and they can sign up for the newsletter. And that's where we now. Okay yeah okay. Cool so hello world. Film dot com. That's the website for this fantastic movie from my good friends. Shawn Wildermuth. Thank you very much shan for being here in this podcast. I'm very happy to be here. And i wish i knew any more spanish than i do. I only know man curse words in cuban. Yeah what would be spanish language war. You know how to say grasses. That's cool. Good ics Shawn. We have these signature question. Are you ready for that question. I am so the question is if you can recommend book and why you are recommending that book. Well it's actually kind of an old book But one of my favorite books. I've ever read was cosmos by carl sagan Informed how i think about the world more than anything i've ever read. It just challenged me. And i read it kinda young but The way it talks about the way the world works and in a way that made really formulated how my mind comes up with things. I've really just. I just love every moment of the book. A lot of people have seen the series. But i really recommend taking a look at it book. It's amazing okay okay. So here's their recommendation from Shawn: Carl Sagan's Cosmos okay. Cool man we'd was a pleasure talking to you and having you here in this episode. I've always admired you working. I've learned a lot from new since longtime ago. I can remember your book about the. What was it. The MCSD exam. Do you remember. Yeah yeah that i vaguely. I've learned a lot from you. Shawn and i consider a friend. And i wish you luck with this movie and your future endeavours. Thank you much. I've always appreciated all the support. You've given me yeah. Thank you very much on and see you. Everyone on the next episode of interfaz podcast.